This special episode was recorded live at the Stanford Graduate School of Business on May 29th, where I moderated a conversation with award-winning journalist and author Karen Hao. Her new book, Empire of AI, offers a gripping inside look at OpenAI and the global race for artificial intelligence supremacy. We discussed the origins and evolution of OpenAI, including its initial nonprofit structure, the influential roles played by Sam Altman and Elon Musk, and the dramatic shift toward a for-profit model. We explored critical governance and control issues, analyzed the controversial concept of AI Empires, and unpacked the boardroom drama surrounding leadership disputes and investor dynamics after Sam Altman’s ouster. Karen shared insights into ethical considerations in AI development, compared AI advancements between the U.S. and China, and discussed the urgent need for thoughtful regulation. Finally, we touched on the powerful roles of community activism and offered recommendations for startups navigating the complex landscape of AI governance. Thanks again to Professor Anat Admati, Tina Mondragon, and my student Celine Lee Vendler from Stanford's Corporations and Society Initiative (CASI) for the invitation, and for letting me post this recording on my podcast series. If you like this show, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing this podcast on social media. You can find all the show notes on the website boardroom-governance.com, and please feel free to subscribe to the Boardroom Governance Newsletter at evanepstein.substack.com This episode is sponsored by the American College of Governance Counsel.
(0:00) Intro
(1:49) About the podcast sponsor: The American College of Governance Counsel
(2:36) Introduction by Professor Anat Admati, Stanford Graduate School of Business. Read the event coverage from Stanford's CASI.
(4:14) Start of Interview
(4:45) What inspired Karen to write this book and how she got started with journalism.
(8:00) OpenAI's Nonprofit Origin Story
(8:45) Sam Altman and Elon Musk's Collaboration
(10:39) The Shift to For-Profit
(12:12) On the original split between Musk and Altman over control of OpenAI
(14:36) The Concept of AI Empires
(18:04) About concept of "benefit to humanity" and OpenAI's mission "to ensure that AGI benefits all of humanity"
(20:30) On Sam Altman's Ouster and OpenAI's Boardroom Drama (Nov 2023) "Doomers vs Boomers"
(26:05) Investor Dynamics Post-Ouster of Sam Altman
(28:21) Prominent Departures from OpenAI (ie Elon Musk, Dario Amodei, Ilya Sutskever, Mira Murati, etc)
(30:55) The Geopolitics of AI: U.S. vs. China
(32:37) The "What about China" Card used by US companies to ward off regulation.
(34:26) "Scaling at All Costs is not leading us in a good place"
(36:46) Karen's preference on ethical AI development "I really want there to be more participatory AI development. And I think about the full supply chain of AI development when I say that."
(39:53) Her biggest hope and fear for the future "the greatest threat of these AI empires is the erosion of democracy."
(43:34) The case of Chilean Community Activism and Empowerment
(47:20) Recreating human intelligence and the example of Joseph Weizenbaum, MIT (Computer Power and Human Reason, 1976)
(51:15) OpenAI's current AI research capabilities: "I think it's asymptotic because they have started tapping out of their scaling paradigm"
(53:26) The state (and importance of) open source development of AI. "We need things to be more open"
(55:08) The Bill Gates demo on chatGPT acing the AP Biology test.
(58:54) Funding academic AI research and the public policy question on the role of Government.
(1:01:11) Recommendations for Startups and Universities
Karen Hao is the author of Empire of AI (Penguin Press, May 2025) and an award-winning journalist covering the intersections of AI & society.